(Posted by Patrick Sullivan Jr.)
I have been battling, rather successfully IMO, with Orac here and here. This isn't the first run-in the Sullivan boys have had with Orac either.
But it has become very obvious that after my first rebuttal on Wednesday, Orac is proving that he really does NOT know.
God bless him anyways.
Since the Pat Sullivan Blog first reported Dr. Buttar's thoughts about IV EDTA chelation on Tuesday of this week, it has created a blogswarm. Dr. Buttar's critics absolutely despise him so any time he surfaces, they come full force. (And he rarely surfaces for those of us that do support him, so it's become news give his "notoriety." We are happy to host him here at Pat Sullivan Blog.)
What spurred me on to begin an email dialog with Dr. Buttar was the fact that his critics kept saying, "Do a study that shows TD-DMPS is even absorbed in the skin."
Here is my complete reply to the barely-"respectful insolent" Orac. (If you just want to only read about the email exchange I had with Dr. Buttar, just skip ahead a few paragraphs. There are comments that I made to people like HCN that out of context, don't exactly make sense.)
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Orac, you said, "Pat, Pat, Pat, so like your dad."
Guilty as charged -- and proud of it! I'm proud of my dad. I'm proud of the fact that he is a hard-working, humorous, generous, honest, God-fearing man. Being able to launch Jigsaw Health with him has been one of the most challenging and rewarding things of my life.
My Dad was born and raised in East St. Louis, Illinois. The high school he went to, Assumption Catholic High School, is now the Southwestern Illinois Correctional Center (state prison). (Of course, he jokes that all the kids thought it was a prison back then and the only thing that really changed in 1994 was the name! ;-)
My Dad worked his ass off to become successful. When he started ACT! in 1986, his only goal was to make enough money to feed his wife, son and three daughters. And if you read his book -- send me an email and I'll send you a FREE copy Orac -- you'll find out that that while trying to feed his family and build a company, he was silently struggling with recurrent bouts of insomnia, fatigue, anxiety, diarrhea, etc. all of which he has concluded stemmed from poor diet and overuse of broad-spectrum antibiotics which impaired digestion (leading to Leaky Gut Syndrome) AND the 8 grams of mercury in his mouth from his 14 "silver fillings." He had those removed in 1987 and experienced significant improvements right away. But subsequent provocation tests have continued to show high levels of mercury since then. Therefore, he has been trying to find an effective detoxifier/chelator ever since. In his own experience, TD-DMPS has been the most effective by far!
Why the heck am I writing all that? For sympathy? For praise? For self-promotion? Absolutely not!
To show my/our true colors? Absolutely!
And most of you can't even show your real names. HCN, you think "Pat Sullivan" is an common name? Come on guys, we're not in an AOL chatroom circa 1994. (Btw, Hello from "bluerolo42" to anyone who remembers me.) The blogosphere today REQUIRES disclosure or you risk the loss of credibility. As far as I'm concerned, Orac's explanation for his anonymity should only apply to him, unless everyone else in here is a doctor...
So Orac, whether or not your comparison of me to my Dad is meant to be an insult, I wear it as a badge of honor!
Now, Orac I halfway accept your claim of "There's nothing "intellectually dishonest" at all." That's because I thought you had a valid question. And after hearing it on an endless loop I started to think, "Yeah Dr. Buttar! Why not just do a stupid blood test and prove whether or not TD-DMPS gets through the skin?"
So I exchanged several emails back and forth with Dr. Buttar late Tuesday night and into early Wednesday morning. Having no scientific background myself (other than my Bachelor of Science in Marketing), he had to explain himself a couple of times for me to finally "get it."
But I can assure you in all honesty, with my real name and reputation on the line, knowing I had to come back here and face the music regardless of his answer, I was going to make SURE he explained it to me until I absolutely understood him and his position.
I was not going to follow him blindly. His explanation absolutely had to make sense and appeal to my own logic. I refuse to be the mouthpiece for a liar or a con man! If I concluded, or even suspected, after our email exchange that he was lying, I would have come right back here and fessed up to it.
So here is our email conversation. I gave my word to Dr. Buttar that he could read my transcription before I posted it. He sent me a reply email saying "go for it" on 8/31/05 at 11:31pm EST.
Patrick Jr. (8/30/05 11:40pm EST): ...I think there may be a flaw in your "thimerosal challenge" if you choose to use DMPS in TD and IV for chelating out the thimerosal. One of the biggest, most common complaints from your critics is that there is no proof that DMPS is even being absorbed. If you use IV DMPS alongside TD-DMPS, you'll leave them a hole big enough to drive a truck through.
Dr. Buttar (8/31/05 1:06am EST): For acute mercury toxicity, TD-DMPS is not sufficient...for chronic mercury toxicity where mercury absorbed into the the tissues, etc....it is the best. I will be taking a bolus of thimerosal.....I will take the bolus antidote. I don't care about the critics or what they say. We don't know how aspirin works but the entire world uses it anyway! A neurosurgeon friend, and father of a child I am treating, will be writing about this issue anyway... [based upon the results of my own empirical observation] will show that the more you use the TD-DMPS, the more mercury is coming out. My purpose [for the thimerosal challenge] is different...I want to show that thimerosal is dangerous, and I will take DMPS intravenously to show how safe it is.
My purpose is not to prove that TD-DMPS is getting through the skin Patrick. I don't care if it is a placebo, which obviously it isn't....and our lancet paper
It is a "SAFETY" issue I'm talking about....I don't care to prove a damn thing to those people that you have been dueling it out with. The NIH has said our treatment and DMPS specifically is DANGEROUS....so I will take DMPS intravenously to show that it is NOT dangerous. That's why I want the media....to show the world how safe DMPS is. And if it's safe to take intravenously, then it's OBVIOUSLY safer to take it transdermally.
Patrick Jr. (8/31/05 1:49am EST): Dr. Buttar, please forgive me, but I didn't realize that showing the safety of DMPS was your true motivation. Frankly, I thought this was already well established? Isn't it readily used overseas?
And yes, chelation therapy for mercury is coming under fire because of Tariq's death, but I believe that to be a knee-jerk reaction. The data of tens of thousands of parents who have already safely used chelation therapies (like what GenerationRescue reports) will eventually change that mindset.
I assumed your motivation would be to prove that TD-DMPS ("expensive hand lotion" as your critics like to call it!) actually WORKS and to absolutely prove once and for all that it is in fact absorbed into the bloodstream. Otherwise, how could you have cured your son? How could my Dad's last TD-DMPS provocation test show elevated levels of heavy metals? etc. etc. etc.
Honestly, unless DMPS is NOT recognized as a powerful heavy metal chelator (which would be shocking news to me!), I'm confused why you would personally risk death to prove its efficacy in IV form for acute exposure. I believe that a (simple?) test proving that DMPS and GSH do in fact enter the bloodstream transdermally would be BIG TIME ammo for you! It probably won't shut up the Orac's of the world, but it will certainly help to convince parents on the fence who are worried about it's efficacy. Let time and the numbers take care of proving it's safety.
Of course, the upcoming Lancet article will surely make for great ammo as well.
Dr. Buttar, my apologies in advance for asking you to explain this to me and for challenging you on this. Please know that I do it with only the best of intentions!
Dr. Buttar (8/31/05 2:32am EST): Patrick,
First, there is no need to apologize to me. Your intent is clear. This letter that the neurosurgeon friend of mine will write talks about the effectiveness issue from a conventional medicine side of the house.
You see, first, you would have to actually have to have some type of test developed to actually detect the DMPS in it's altered form as it is absorbed. That takes money, effort and time. As my friend says, why do it? Let someone who wants to establish biokenetics and half life do that. It is not necessary to do this from a clinical efficacy standpoint. It would be nice to know how it works, but it is irrelevant. It works based on empirical evidence.
So it's absorption is not an issue for me or for anyone who is a true scientist because the empirical evidence is abundant. Only a pseduo scientist is going to get caught up with levels in serum, which it may not even show, since DMPS is highly neurophillic and may be possibly taken up by the nerves or distributed through the lymphatics...I don't know and I frankly don't care since it has no relevance to the clinical side of the house. But you see how absurd it is to simply assume it has to get into the serum? It most likely does, but it may not. The point is, it gets in and it works....and it works better than anything else out there.
Patrick Jr. (8/31/05 3:11am EST): Ok, it IS clear to me now! You have me convinced, and fired up about it actually!
(snip)
PS - I'm glad my true intention is coming through clearly. I know you are busy and that I am taking up much of your time, but I believe it is time well invested.
PATRICK JR. (8/31/05 12:04pm EST)...I emailed him again before I received a reply back: Dr. Buttar, I had an epiphany this morning and I think I finally get it!! It all boils down to EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE -- your son and 20+ others have been cured from the symptoms of autism following the TD-DMPS protocol. It just works! We don't know *exactly* how it works, and we don't really care because the reward FAR exceeds any alleged risk of DMPS.
Arguing absorption rates, etc. is complete folly b/c no matter what, no one can explain this empirical evidence away!!
I feel a little moronic that I've had to go around in circles with you only to come back to what I now remember was the most convincing aspect of your testimony to Congress when I first read it 10 months ago -- the stuff just works!
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And that is the best way to finish this post. Our entire argument really all comes down to one, and one thing only -- EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE. You can certainly try to pretend it doesn't exist, but not a single one of you can explain away the fact that chelation therapy has worked to abate and cure the symptoms of autism. And you never will.
- Patrick Sullivan Jr.
RELATED STORIES ON PAT SULLIVAN BLOG:
Dr. Buttar on IV EDTA Chelation and the Autistic Boy's Death (8/29/05)
Dr. Buttar gets mugged by 6NEWS Investigators (9/1/05)
Autism - If not mercury, then what? (8/31/05)
